We have removed a post we put up yesterday as we just needed to vent a little bit. But that doesn’t mean that the issues go away. One such issue is the following article

#1. Selecting a leader https://www.christianpost.com/news/jd-greear-calls-on-sbc-to-better-include-women-in-leadership-recommit-to-exposing-abuse-224372/

Among them, argued Greear, was the status of women and minorities in the SBC, which he believed needed to be more proportionately represented in leadership.

Leaders are not selected because they are not white or male. This is a statement we are not going to change. It is not racist or showing hatred to women but stating a real fact. There is more to leadership than choosing someone because of the color of their skin or their gender. Diversity and gender ideology are not influential factors in selecting a leader. If a man of color is qualified and God’s selection then he gets the nod. There are very good, spiritual, qualified men of color who can lead well. But again, even the disciples did not take it upon themselves to make the final choice.

The church does not practice reverse discrimination. That is sin as well. We do not keep a white male out of leadership positions simply because he is white or that women disagree with him. God does not go according to the ERA agreement. God is consistant and you will notice that the instructions for those to lead the NT church are about the same as those who were selected to lead the temple. The only requirement we have found to be altered was that NT church leaders did not have to be sons of Aaron.

This may not sit well with those people who are more progressive but Christianity is not aboout being progressive. It is about being obedient to God’s word. If you want to follow God, you cannot choose a leader who does not believe or follow God. You are only asking for trouble.

#2. Opposing God’s Annointed Leader

Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his Cushite wife, for he had married a Cushite. “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses?” they asked. “Hasn’t he also spoken through us?” And the Lord heard this.

(Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)

At once the Lord said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, “Come out to the tent of meeting, all three of you.” So the three of them went out. Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, he said, “Listen to my words:

“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?”  (Numbers 12 NASB)

Notice first that both Aaron and Miriam found a very minute reason to start their criticism of Moses. They targeted his marriage.keep in mind that Moses married a foreign woman long before the Mosaic code was given to the people of Israel. But that was not enough to keep his brother and sister from finding fault with. Moses was humble but as we know, he was not perfect. He made his mistakes and God punished him accordingly.

But look at what God said, Moses was faithful in all of God’s house. We can read into those words a lot of things but we will not. Instead we suggest you look at the actions of those involved in attacking church leaders and see if they are correct. You cannot go by human standards since God does not go by human ideology or human standards.

Yes church leaders sin but are those sins enough to remove the man from his position of leadership? Moses was not removed from his position are we greater than God? Are we faithful in all that we do in God’s house? In otherwords, are we so perfect that we can go against God’s appointed leaders? Daniel never did, even when he was falsely accused.

The position of leadership in God’s church is not something that is to be fooled with. We read the following article


But we are not going to address it. There are too many things wrong with it and while Dr. Patterson is not perfect by whose and what standard is he being judged by? It certainly is not God’s. Interpretation is a dangerous tool to be using in the church and in judging different events or words. Using interpretation is not following any biblical instruction.

Using personal views is also a dangerous action to use. They are influenced by so many outside mitigating factors that direct a person to what is probably the wrong conclusion. Getting to the truth is following a biblical instruction and it is dangerous only for the offender. It also protects both the leader and the accuser.

We cannot oust a leader simply because a woman’s honor is at stake or it will appease a rebellious group of people.We need to consult God and make sure there is a problem first. Dealing with God’s annointed is not some arbitrary act conducted by someone who does not like the leader, the color of their skin, their gender, or by someone who is not part of the church group.

We also cannot oust a leader because of some generic personal letter or news article that is sans the right details and reads more like slander and revenge than an honest accounting of what transpired. 11 years is a long time to make the report as well. So is 20, 30 and even 5 years. Subjective views are not enough to make a case against God’s appointed leaders.

#3. Good leaders do not guarantee paradisehttps://www.christianpost.com/news/sex-abuse-in-humanitarian-groups-christian-ministries-who-is-left-to-trust-223427/

In the wake of reports that Christian humanitarian ministries have been caught up in a wide net of sexual abuse allegations, many questions have emerged over who can be trusted.

While abuse of any kind is denounced, it hits a particular nerve when the people who have pledged to protect and help those in the most vulnerable situations are the abusers themselves.

Please do not think that once you get a great leader all sin and evil are gone from the church or Christian organization. Sin is going to happen because many people do not listen to their good leaders. Aachen heard Joshua’s instructions yet he still decided to sin. Many Israelites lost their lives because of that sin. These actions are not the fault of the leader. Nor cause to remove the leader from his position.

Leaders can only do so much and each person under that leadership still has the ability to exercise their right of free choice. People will also accuse good leaders of making mistakes. Those accusations generally come from those who are not privy to all the information the leader has before them. Such accusations need to be treated with a grain of salt and not quickly supported.

People should be praying for their leaders not seeking to oust them. God should be the one to lead any attempt to remove leaders from their position as it is such an emotionally charged affair that could lead to a split in the church if handled wrongly.

But again, do not expect things to be perfect when a good leader accepts their appointment. There will always be someone who disagrees with whoever is placed in leadership.

#4.When to oust a leaderhttps://www.christianpost.com/voice/no-andy-stanley-isnt-a-marcionite.html

Last week I witnessed one of the most bizarre things in the Christian-social-media-world (other than Christians dogmatically refusing to acknowledge President Trump’s various moral failures): Andy Stanley (yes, that Andy Stanley) has been deemed a “Marcionite.” Having listened to a decent number of his sermons over the years I found this hard to believe. After listening to the sermon in question, I’m now convinced that calling Stanley a Marcionite is so off the mark that it amounts to slander and so, these Christians should repent of it and ask his forgiveness.

That is God’s call but parishioners should not be letting their pastor go off into false teaching unchallenged. The Bible does allow for the congregation to question the theology and sermons of a pastor. No one is to blindly accept the words of a leader. You have to make sure their words are in line with the Bible. if they are not then you need to confront the pastor correctly, with real and correct evidence.

Unlike the quoted paragraph above, you should not be using personal opinion. You need to make sure you are biblically correct in your opposition but even if you are biblically correct, ouster of the pastor is not called for. He needs to be given a chance to correct his mistaken thinking first. He needs to be given the chance to  repent of his error and seek God to help him get back on the right track. Grace is not limited to God.

The Bible has the correct procedure to follow.

#5. Justice needs to prevailhttps://www.christianpost.com/news/biblical-counselors-association-pulls-abuse-conference-from-swbts-over-paige-patterson-controversy-224505/

The Association of Certified Biblical Counselors has announced that it will no longer hold its annual gathering in October at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Texas in light of the controversies surrounding the seminary’s former president Paige Patterson.

These type of actions are not justice in action but more of a piling on and an attempt to look spiritual. We do not like seeing them take place. They are more of a knee jerk response than an attempt to bring any supposed offender to repentance. We will say the same thing aboout the Roseanne debacle. Yes, she should not have said those words but the response was not just, it was not fair and certainly did not fit the alleged crime.

The response was over the top and only an attempt to look good in a bad situation. But people overreact these days and go too far in their attempts to look good and appease an individual or small group of people.The church has to be just, using God’s standard for justice and then apply mercy if mercy is called for. It is not to pile on or do knee jerk reactions to situations that had nothing to do with them.

Being in leadership is not easy. As we said earlier, there will always be someone who disagrees with your occupancy and will seek to have you removed from that position. We have experienced this first hand in the church. Our only crime was that we looked like an old boyfriend of one of the female congregants. We were let go without being able to defend ourselves. We were never treated in a just or fair manner.

The unfair expectations placed on leaders is a standard no one can live up to. Then when the secular ideologies are incorporated into the congregation’s thinking, it is even more difficult to lead people. When the people of Israel complained, God was ready to wipe them out. We should be more careful in how we handle leadership positions and the people who fill them.

None of this gives those people who fill leadership positions permission to do as they please. They need to humble themselves and see what instructions God has given those who do accept being a leader of God’s people. Then they need to obey those instructions. Leaders need wisdom but so do those who follow them.

God Does Not Have

a zero tolerance policy.

Back in the late 70s or 80s, there was a baseball player who had trouble with drug addiction.  His professional team kept giving him chance after chance to get his life together. They also received a lot of ridicule because they did not give up on this pitcher. It must have been 7 or 8 times that the Yankees gave Mr. Howe a second chance. It was unique to see a professional team not give up on one of their employees.

Especially since the advent of zero tolerance. Everyone from public school age to adult under the new policy has one chance to get it right. Since no one is perfect that is an impossible task. Then when the American Federal government attaches education money to the zero tolerance ideology then the practice used by the Yankees is excluded.

One of the problems with zero tolerance is that mercy and justice are thrown out the window and cannot influence the judgment of those in authority. These are two elements that God said his followers must have- Micah 6:8. Zero Tolerance also does not work with those who are struggling in their faith. We were listening to Whitney Houston sing her song, I Love the Lord the other night and the Lord impressed on us the struggles that Ms. Houston had.

She grew up in the church and we are giving her the benefit of the doubt that she truly loved the Lord. But her inability to overcome her problems stifled her spiritual growth but it did not, we hope, stifle her love for God. It is her example that is the focus here. She was just one of millions of believers who struggle in their faith. For some reason, they do not have the courage, the strength, the ability to overcome their personal problems and cannot grow strong in the Lord.

These people do not need a spiritual zero tolerance policy. They need compassion, help, prayer and a lot more. The question strong, mature believers need to ask themselves is where would we be if God had a zero-tolerance policy. Where would we be if God did not practice grace, mercy and justice? One definition of grace is

Grace means to get something that you do not deserve; unmerited favor {https://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/20-inspirational-bible-verses-about-grace/#ixzz5GqHsWO00

That is what we receive when God uses his grace to give us more chances than we deserve. Now God has punished sin and he has not given some OT people a second chance when  they sinned. But those acts were  not the result of a blanket zero tolerance policy. Aachen’s sin at Jericho, caused the death of several Israelites. Deaths that could have been avoided so his punishment was in line with God’s word that punished certain acts with the death penalty.

Ananias & Sapphira did not receive a second chance but their sin was very grievous. It did not qualify for grace and another chance. Paul also wrote about putting people out of the congregation for their sins {1 Cor. 5:1-13}. But that does not necessarily mean that the church puts struggling believers out of the church.

11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

These words are not to be used as permission or an excuse for any church to ‘act spiritual’ and stop fellowship with those who truly struggle in their faith. They are not an excuse to demonstrate to the world at how spiritual the church is nor to show that they are doing something about the problem. When the church properly addresses an issue, everyone will know they are doing something about the problem. Believers who struggle need real help, not judgment, condemnation ridicule and so on. They also do not need to be made an example of. That is something true justice does not do.

The church needs to take its example from God not from human leadership or authority. It needs to obtain and apply true discernment so they can see the difference between one who is purposefully sinning and one who is actually having problems in their Christian life. This knowledge also helps the church to see that Peter’s execution of judgment on Ananias and Sapphira was not merely copying God and his actions in the OT but was done by the Holy Spirit.

In other words, the church does not falsely apply judgment because Peter did so in the book of Acts. Any disciplinary act or punishment should be led by the Holy Spirit not just done because church leaders can apply judgment.

Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled.

The writer of Hebrews is instructing the church to make sure that the people receive grace. Though we would caution that this verse does not over-rule the verses talking about church discipline. Providing grace does not remove any disciplinary action unless mercy is called for. When people return and ask forgiveness, grace needs to be applied and as Jesus said, forgive those that ask for forgiveness.

The church is not in the business of cutting off those who struggle or make mistakes. It is in the business of leading struggling people to repentance and a new chance to live right. It doesn’t matter if it is 1 time or a dozen times, the church’s mission is still the same. Struggling believers are not a heavy stone hindering the church from achieving new spiritual heights. They are people who need spiritual healing, compassion and help.

Over the years we have read some former pastors and missionaries words after they have lost their faith due to the response they received from their church friends when they struggled in their faith. The words are not complimentary to the church and expose the lack of God’s grace amongst church members. Not all but a lot  of them do. Some are unrepentant about their problems that led them to being ousted from their ministries and position in the church.

In our opinion, those sites should have a lot fewer members if the church was practicing God’s way correctly. So the church takes ridicule from other denominations and unbelievers? The church’s instructions do not come from those mocking groups. They come from God and God set the example for the church to follow. Harsh punishment when it is called for. Mercy when it is called for and repeated second chances.

God wants all men to be saved and a spiritual zero tolerance policy does not work to achieve that goal. We should be grateful to God that he did not adopt a zero tolerance policy when he created life on this earth. His holiness is not tainted because of his policy of grace, forgiveness, mercy and multiple second chances. It is enhanced and shows us who God  is.

He is not a mass murderer but a loving God that gives all of his creation the same chances. He is also a God who stand there and says:

“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.(Mt. 11:28 NASB)

Those words are for struggling believers as well.

An Issue That Won’t Go Away 2

It seems that everyone has to state their opinion on the Paige Patterson and the women and the church issue. Today we read the following article


and it is troubling to say the least. We will look at some of her words, suggestions and comments here. Not because we want to labor the point but because she does bring up issues we may not have discussed previously. Let’s start with the title:

On Paige Patterson and the Southern Baptist’s ‘Boy’s Club’ Mentality

We need to ask how is the action taken against Dr. Patterson evidence for a ‘boy’s club’ mentality? Is it because women are upset that they did not get to replace him with one of their own? If so, then their action seems more like a power grab than spiritually trying to correct a real problem. Do Ms. Vicari, Roys & Moore really understand biblical instructions God gave to the church about church leadership or do they just want the power and control for themselves?

We are not accusing those women of these motivations but they are the questions that rise in our minds when we read the title and her words. It seems that they may have won a battle but lost the war. They got to ruin a man, or so they thought, only to see their desire for female leadership dashed by the appointments made by the seminary’s leadership.

That is the message that comes across from Ms. Vicari’s words. Her words dare not cheering that another spiritual man was appointed and God’s word was obeyed but more like the disappointment that comes when a woman was not given the power and leadership of the school. Her argument becomes a sexist statement and supports discrimination against qualified men.

While trustees were still in session, the Washington Post‘s Sarah Pulliam Bailey reported a woman who was raped alleges Patterson encouraged her not to tell law enforcement and to forgive her attacker.

Why bring this up? If Ms. Vicari wants to kick a man when he is down, she is doing a good job of it. There is no point to bringing this up since it does not pertain to the topic suggested by her article’s title.The word ‘alleges’ only report that the women has her side of the story which may not be true. It also does not disclose the motivation behind her words and does not do anything to bring people to the truth or God’s way of handling the problem. It is more of a backhanded swipe, like Ms. Vicari wants to get her shots in before the issue disappears into history.

So far this article is not sounding like a spiritual, godly piece of work that seeks to heal and bring people to God’s way. But there is more.

So that is what I will do here. I will share my honest thoughts not about Patterson specifically, but about the broader discussion of the value of women within the Southern Baptist Convention and men who offer a healthy example.

Okay that sounds good. There are many men in all denominations that take advantage of God’s instructions for their own benefit. But it turns out this article is very short and does not address her stated desire very well. She does talk about her male colleagues and how they treat her but that only proves her bias and may expose her desire for the SBC to be like the men she works with. It is hard to say and since we do not know the spiritual quality of those men her point falls flat.

Behind closed doors, I’ve had countless discussions with young Southern Baptist women I know who are tired of the “boy’s club” mentality they encounter within the convention. No, we do not wish to be pastors

Again, that is fine but what is hers and those women’s definition of this supposed boy’s club? Does it follow the standard definition or is it pointing out a spiritual problem in the church? It is not a boy’s club mentality when male church leadership are obeying God’s instruction and keeping male leadership in the church system. The church does not belong to men and the men entrusted with decisions that affect everyone in the church must follow God’s instructions or they will sin and bring evil into God’s holy place.

Men cannot arbitrarily put a women in charge or listen to her just because a woman wants it done. Men have to obey God and answer to him concerning their decisions and actions.  If God’s instructions are followed correctly, there is no boy’s club mentality in the church.

We are advocates, authors, and fellow Southern Baptist congregants who simply wish for our thoughts and conclusions to be considered and appreciated by Southern Baptist men in the same way they do their male colleagues.

There are a few problems here. The first problem is seen in her words ‘in the same way…’ What Ms. Vicari does not seem to recognize is that there are many men who have thoughts and conclusions that are far from what God wants them to have. Does she really want to place women in a sinful category and have them sin against God and the church? Why does she want herself and other women to be like those men?

Wouldn’t it be better if she advocated that those women seek God and learn how to be spiritual and adopt wise, spiritual counsel so they can be better helpmeets to their husbands? Wouldn’t it be better if Ms. Vicari encouraged those women to make sure their thoughts and conclusions are in line with God’s instructions and that they are following all of the Bible instead of merely having their thinking be accepted by men?

This brings up a common complaint we have seen in the comment section of some webistes. There are many women who want to achieve powerful positions merely because they belong to the female gender. Not because they are qualified for the position. The responders point out the lack of qualifications of those women and state how unfair that is.

It is the same here. Ms. Vicari wants men to accept the thoughts and conclusions of women merely because they are women in the church. It doesn’t work that way. Women need to be following the Holy Spirit to the truth and speak that truth in love. Since Ms. Vicari brought up Dr. Patterson, we will use him as an example. That spiritual wisdom, that spiritual truth, that speaking the truth in love was absent in all of the women’s arguments against that man. Ms.Vicari’s article included.

Why should men listen to women when the women are not truly following God and his instructions? That is the question Ms. Vicari and so many women like her need to answer. A follow up question is, why should men listen to women when they have nothing truthful, spiritual etc,., to add to the conversation? Men do not need to be told what they already know.

And we want to be acknowledged when riding an elevator, as Beth Moore so aptly shared, or while sitting at a lunch or dinner meeting.

This sounds more like a personal issue that does not acknowledge the danger that comes when a male acknowledges a women, not his wife, in close quarters. Speaking for ourselves, we know that women in the church do not always follow God’s rules, have mental health issues and other scenarios that will distort what took place. Plus, in certain circumstances, acknowledging a woman in certain quarters can lead to temptation,, lust and other problems. We are not saying  the woman is at fault, it is the reality. The men doing the acknowledging may not be as strong spiritually in such circumstances as the accusations against Mr.  Hybels have shown.

If women want to consider us rude for not acknowledging them, that is fine. We will take that over the possible alternatives. To women it may be a simple act to say hello or whatever,but in today’s cultural climate, do not expect men to think the same way. Then women, if you are not those men’s wives, you are not their helpmeet. Why should any man listen to a woman whom they are not married to?

Our readers may think we are dealing with minor issues but these minor issues have a tendency to come back and bite a man on their rears when they least expect it.There are more mitigating factors involved than we are placing here that turns a seemingly innocent encounter into something that threatens his career, supporting his family and so on. Again, we will point to Dr. Patterson and other men who have lost their positions over what they thought were events lost in decades past.

By the way, if my husband Eric ever ignored a woman while riding an elevator or sitting next to her at a lunch meeting, I wouldn’t think he is acting out of respect for me. I’d call him out for being plain rude.

That is her opinion and perspective and it is her husband so she is okay with thinking that. BUT her opinion and perspective is not God’s and men have evil attacking them thorugh many innocent encounters all the time. We have more to worry about than some writer’s opinion that not acknowledging a women is rude.

All this is not a judgment against all Southern Baptist men. There are many respectful, professional Southern Baptist men I’ve working alongside who welcome my perspectives and leadership. My sweet Southern Baptist husband has a servant leader’s heart

The bold words are what is important here. Again, we would ask her for her definition of a servant’s heart? In today’s church world, it could mean many different things and is very subjective.What isn’t subjective is biblical teaching. Women, you were made for the man. The man was not made for you. He is not your servant but God’s. Whether you like it or not, the man has to obey God over you.

We shouldn’t bring up Adam and Eve here but look what happened when Adam stop obeying God and listened to his wife’s bad counsel. Ms. Vicari should be encouraging women to support their men to be obedient to God. Not demanding that men accept their faulty,unspiritual conclusions. Women should be seeking the truth from God and how to help their husbands, not demanding that they be acknowledged by men who are not their husbands. Or forcing their way into the halls of leadership that God has banned them from holding.

Ms. Vicari, Ms Moore, Ms. Roys and other women are failing their female audience by trying to get men to disobey God and let some women violate scriptures. They are using men as an excuse to not following God and his way. But biblical instruction does not tell women to do that. Women are tobe holy, scriptural, biblical and follow Jesus even when men in general and their husbands fail to follow God. There is no instruction from Jesus for women to wait till their man obeys God before they obey God. Read the scriptures again and see that both men and women must obey God regardless of who is or isn’t following the Bible.

In this article we see again that God’s desires for women and this issue are left out and the writer focuses on women’s selfish demands. She didn’t use one scripture to back her points up. That is dangerous and wrong. If you want spiritual men to listen to your thoughts and conclusions, then women, follow both God and Jesus correctly.

The People Do Not Lead

This may come as a shock to some people as they were raised under Abraham Lincoln’s words, a government for the people, of the people and by the people. But the people were never installed as leaders of the church by God.  In the OT God led the people of Israel and installed male leaders to guide his people and protect them from sin.

In the NT, Jesus was installed as the head of the church. Then men were appointed to be its stewards under the titles of overseer, pastor, preacher, and elder. At no time was the church congregation appointed leaders of God’s church. Yet the words of Abraham Lincoln are attractive. They provide some sort of power to the common people who feel so powerless to stop those leaders who allow themselves to be corrupted by evil. The poor, the innocent, the unprepared are often the victims of greed, lust, abuse of power,  theft and many other sins.

This empowerment (and we hate that term) leads to many problems for a nation. Why? Because the people are not trained to lead. They often want something that is wrong and only fulfills the same sinful and selfish desires they hate to see in their corrupted leaders. For example the vote in Ireland over their 8th amendment banning abortion


Quiet revolution’ leads to abortion rights win in Ireland

Given a chance we see that the people will not advocate for or choose that which is good. Some will but the majority will not. They want their selfish ways to fulfill their own agenda or sinful desires. We see this in the trial of Jesus where the people chose to have a criminal released over a righteous man. We also see it in Jesus’ words where he said that because of the hardness of the peoples hearts Moses granted divorce for a number of reasons instead of God’s only reason

We also see it in the example of Jonah and Nineveh where, God said the people did not know their right hand from their left or good from evil.

Jesus said that the people were like sheep and are led astray. That happens when enough evildoers do the right work and stir up the people to support their agenda. We see this in the way the Democrats are trying to stir up the people and cause trouble for the rightfully elected president of the United States. The masses are not the leaders even though people like Karl Marx and Lenin, among others have said the people are in charge.

The people need real leaders to keep them from going astray, to inform them of what is right and wrong, what is moral and immoral, as well as good and evil. As you can see by that vote,  the majority of people do not care about little babies. It is their lifestyle, their lust for sex, their sin that they want more than a little life. Their corrupted thinking has them looking for alternatives other than being responsible, being caring, being parents.

The people are not to lead. They are to be shown the right way to live, given the rules and instructions from God and shown what they must do in order to receive salvation. But as we have seen, even in the church that is not often enough to keep people from choosing sin over God’s way.

Destroying the proper leadership of the church is one way evil uses to get back at God. By having vulnerable people import erroneous doctrine like Mr. Lincoln’s into the church, evil can start working its destructive way. Leadership, if conducted God’s way, is not wrong. Replacing God’s form of leadership for a human variety is wrong.

The people do not lead the church. But of course there are those exceptions and God has provided some to help the church remove bad leaders and install good ones. But the bad has to be clearly identified as actually bad, have correct evidence supporting the accusation and everything has to be handled God’s way. God does not provide permission for revolutions, rebellion or sinful action.

The church is God’s and he wants it run his way. This means that the people do not lead and that his leaders must be strong, humble, courageous, gentle yet tough and so on. They cannot give into the people when the people want to sin. They have to lead the people to God’s way, feed them spiritually and biblically correct. They also have to have a tough skin and withstand the attacks the people bring against them. Moses faced those attacks so must modern church leaders.

Sadly, too many of those church leaders have failed God, failed in their duties and failed the people.

The idea that the people do not lead also pertains to the family. The people were not installed as head of the family either. Pastors, elders, and other church leaders are not the head of the family. The husband is. The pastor, elders, etc., can provide spiritual counsel but they are not in charge of the family unit. This is not good news to those women who think they are in charge or can run the family better than their husbands.

Women, you are not in charge of the church and you are not in charge of the family. Your obedience to God in all areas of married life will set the right example for your children to follow.Your disobedience, rebellion and other sins will not. God place men in charge of the family and you have no authority to make any changes to that decision. The same goes for the church.

God has his reasons for this and those reasons and decisions must be respected. When it comes to abortion, what is sad is that so many women have been deceived by the false teaching that it is their bodies and they get to make those reproductive decisions. This goes against biblical teaching that the woman’s body belongs to her husband not her.

That false teaching also leads women to commit murder. There is no biblical permission given to women to harm the body developing inside her. It is not her body  that is waiting 9 months to be born and not hers to harm. Women, abortion is sin, it is wrong and if your husband wants you to have one you must be strong and not obey. Being submissive does not mean you get to sin on command. You still obey God over man. Being submissive does not mean you are free to break God’s rules.

We are sad to see what has taken place in Ireland but the Bible tells us that evil men will get worse. They get worse because the presence of strong, correct biblical leadership is lacking and those new leaders want sin more than God and his ways.

It Is Hard Not To Respond


Beth Moore on Paige Patterson Controversy: ‘Broken System’ Will Not Mend If Men Refuse to Listen

We know where we stand. We believe God and seek to teach his word correctly. BUT we may have, if we are lucky, 250 or so followers and a few extra readers. We do not have the amount of followers or influence that Ms. Moore has. What we say may not matter to this situation either. We are not famous, we do not get any support and we are lucky to continue posting.

But the above title brings both sadness and anger to our minds. Anger that women think they can run the church better than God and sadness for the same reason. As we have read so many articles on this issue, we noticed that Ms. Moore, Ms. Roys and those that opposed Dr. Patterson and others who feel the same way have left out of the discussion the following passage of scripture:

In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear. (1 Peter 3 NASB)

These women make their attacks on prominent men and they would attack us if they knew we existed or were famous. But we digress. This passage is quite clear in its instruction to women.We do not see this gentle and quiet spirit in Ms. Moore or Ms. Roys or other women who want the church to be made after their own image.

They do not seem to be wanting to have church the way God wants it conducted. We do not see these women calling on men to obey God’s instruction. All of their arguments have been about their own desires. Not one word has been said by these women about God’s desires. Then their physical example has only reinforced this point. They will attack any man, no matter his position, if that man obeys God over them or they do not like his words.

You will notice that not one of these women produced a real passage of scripture supporting their agenda. How can they? None exists. They are also lucky to be living in the modern age as God certainly punished Miriam and Aaron for going against Moses’ leadership. Maybe he will punish these ladies, hard to say. It is certain that they think they know how the church should be run better than God does. It is sad to see take place. They are a bad testimony to the world and a bad example.

Prominent evangelist Beth Moore, founder of Living Proof Ministries, has responded to the resignation of Paige Patterson as Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary president, by telling men that the “broken system” will not change if they keep refusing to listen to what women have to say.

We heard this a lot when we taught in South Korea. Whenever the Native English Teacher saw something they did not like, they cried that the Korean school system was broken. All their whining did was demonstrate that their cries really meant- The Koreans are not doing it my way so the Koreans are wrong.  The same attitude applies to this situation.

Some women are crying that men are not doing church their way so the men and the church are wrong. Also, these women are saying that God and his system are broken. God’s system is not broken. What is wrong is that both men and women refuse to obey God’s instructions and sin has and is doing its destructive work in the church.

Unfortunately for these women, God did not write one Bible for the ancient church and one for the modern church. The words in 1 Peter are applicable today as they were when Peter first wrote them. They do not get to divorce their husbands if abuse occurs in the church. Then to address the final line, it is not men who are refusing to listen to women. Men have often  listened to women over God and instructions.

It is the women who are refusing to listen to godly men and God that creates the trouble. Their disobedience is a major part of the problem. Of course, men who do not listen to God also contribute to the situation in the church today. One of the biggest problems in this situation are all those busybodies who stick their noses in a marriage and try to dictate to one spouse or the other what they should do. Often that bad advice is not biblical and should not be spoken.

In comments posted on Twitter Thursday, as part of a conversation with Kyle J. Howard, a biblical counselor and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary student, Moore said she agrees and is “grateful” for the first steps taken by the seminary to replace Patterson. She added that the safety of women and girls should be the “top priority and urgency” in the entire process.

What about God’s will? Does he not count here? Shouldn’t his ways be the top priority of a theological school and church? Shouldn’t the truth be taught to all? What we see in those words is complete selfishness. The man does not matter, only the women matter and that is a very narrow and sinful point of view.

At the same time, she warned that “this broken system will not mend if men are simply and well-meaningly trained to view women as damsels in distress” that they must protect.

“This ideology still produces Supermen. Not healthy brothers,” she warned.

Sorry but her way does not produce spiritual women but rebellious, disrespectful, and disobedient females. Again, though we see subjectiveness coming through her point of view. The training men are to get has to meet her subjective ideas and not God’s. She does not go to one scripture passage to support her point. so men are to be made after her ideas and not to be made after God’s. This is very dangerous ground she is walking on.

Moore said that protecting and defending is good, but what is needed for a healthy relationship in a family is “mutual respect.”

“Don’t save us, then refuse to listen to what we have to say. Don’t deliver us, then dismiss us. Don’t show us the way, then shoo us away. Work with us. Serve with us. See what value we have.”

They have not done this with Dr. Patterson or other men who agree with him. Her words mean nothing. They sought to remove someone who told them something they did not want to hear. They did not work with anyone, especially men,but made demands, wrote articles against these men and not once sought God to lead them to the truth. All they have said and done is shown that they have no spiritual value.

When we look closely at her actions and  words plus the words of Ms. Roys and other women in  this issue, we see that they do not practice what they are preaching. They will not listen to God and they think they are better than men and God.

In an open letter to Christian brothers, she wrote that while she had chosen to accept “the peculiarities accompanying female leadership in a conservative Christian world,” feeling that “they were rooted in deep convictions based on passages from 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14,” she later realized amid attitudes that “smacked of misogyny” and “objectification” that “Scripture was not the reason for the colossal disregard and disrespect of women among many of these men.”

We talked about that open letter. Her conclusions were in error, misleading and distorted. There can be no listening to women when they want to disobey God and lead their men to sin. When David said walk not in the counsel of the ungodly, he did not leave women, wives and daughters out of that instruction. Women if you want to be listened to, then you got to be on the right path with God, humble and submit to his instructions.

Men in general, your husbands and your sons may not always be right but biblical instructions did not provide that escape clause so you can ignore scriptural instructions. You are to do good to those who supposedly did evil to you,  you are to pray for them and not return evil for evil. These are other biblical passages absent from the treatment of Dr. Patterson and this discussion. We do not see these women following one thing God has said to do.

The system may be broken in Ms. Moore’s eyes but the beams in her eyes block her vision of hers, Ms. Roys, and the other women’s actions and words in this issue. In other words, the system is only broken to those who disobey biblical instruction in handling different church issues including this one.