The Nashville Statement

You can read it at the following link

We may have touched on this in the past, we just do not remember. Our point though would have been that we did not need another statement. We felt and feel that the believers must put the truth in their live and then let their light shine. Statements cannot help the poor, heal the sick, or do evangelism. Statements can always be misunderstood.

BUT we read through the articles today and have added a new perspective to our opinion. The statement, whether you sign it or not, helps immature and mature believers better define what they believe. It gives them factual knowledge of what the Christian faith is all about. It also clears up any confusion in their minds about God’s view of marriage and other aspects of life.

The Bible does that as well but this might be a little quicker way of doing. Will we sign the statement? No. While we agree with just about everything that is included in the statement, we do not like signing such documents.

We also agree with a lot of what John Piper says in the following article,

we just want to go a little bit further with our own answers.

“(1) Is hot-topic orthodoxy, announced and affirmed in the wide-open public realm, appropriate in a ‘casting pearls before swine’ kind of way?

The simple answer is ‘no’. Making a declaration of what you believe is not casting pearls before swine. How will unbelievers know what you believe if you do not tell them? What is casting pearls before swine when you present biblical truth to those who have no interest in it. They will discard it without consideration. They do not have an open-mind or heart to what God teaches. They think they know more than God or they just do not want t be part of God’s kingdom.

(2) Is it helpful or harmful for outreach to draw public lines in the sand over ideology, which, at worst, is seen as politically motivated by the world, or is at least something that adds a new wall of separation between the Christians in a local church from the liberal, unbelieving neighbors they are trying to reach within a neighborhood, first through relationship building

We need to draw a line in the sand. Jesus did. The world has to know the difference between right and wrong. If they think that wrong is right, then they will feel no need to change. You cannot reach unbelieving people if you offer them exactly what they already have. In other words, you do not compromise the truth to win souls.

Jesus told the truth all the time. People knew exactly where they stood in relationship with God, salvation, eternal life. The church does a great dis-service to itself and God by coloring the lines by including ideas that God does not include. Jesus lost disciples because he told the truth. We will lose people when we tell the truth. Jesus never instructed anyone to alter his words in hopes that someone might be saved. You can’t save someone by lying to them. You can’t save someone by misrepresenting God and his word.

Don’t be afraid of losing someone to the secular world because you represented the truth and God correctly. It will happen. God doesn’t send judgment upon his people for telling the truth to the unsaved. If the liberals do not want to accept the truth, let them leave the church. Their presence will only cause more problems because they will be spreading false teaching in the congregation and that is not a good idea.

Some who’ve said they agree with the points made in the Nashville Statement have also argued that it further damages the Church’s already negative reputation with homosexuals, however.

Who cares. The LGBTQ community need to realize that what they practice is sin, that they need to give it up to be saved, and that they need to follow scriptures correctly. The only reason the church has a ‘bad’ reputation with the LGBTQ community is that the latter does not want to give up their sin to be a Christian. They want the church to give up their salvation to accommodate their sinful practices.

We do not change from the truth just because practicing sinful people demand it.

Sprinkle, who at the time of the publication of the Nashville Statement released a 20-minute film called, “Dear Church: I’m Gay,” asserted that the declaration uses “impersonal” and “outdated” language and fails to own up to the mistakes made by theologically orthodox believers in the conversation.

“While we absolutely need to celebrate and promote Christianity’s historic view of marriage and sexual expression,” Sprinkle said, “we need to do so much more thoughtfully and much more holistically — pounding the pulpit for truth and grace.”

This is a topic for another day. The key is don’t let the unbeliever mess up your understanding of the Bible by arguing minor points like outdated language. Such discussions are a distraction meant to confuse the believer and have them make mistake sin their own faith.



We do not normally look at these controversial issues all the time. There are times when our voice would simply just be another one in a crowd. But this issue saddens us. When sin happens in the church we certainly are not delighted. But we know that it does thus we are not shocked when we read about these different failings. Our main concern is for believers, victims and offenders not lose their faith. We must remember that believers are not perfect, cannot control their lusts, have other struggles which makes living the Christian life very difficult.


What we call for here  comes in several points. First, we cannot let emotion dictate our response. Using emotion to adjudicate offenses is not a biblical teaching. Nor is playing to the emotions. To get to the heart of this matter and solve this problem (for the present & future) we need to follow biblical steps. These steps do not favor one side or the other but strives for true justice.


Before we continue though, we will post the link and a quote to make sure everyone understands the full scope of what we are talking about.


Hundreds of women have been revealing stories of rape, sexual abuse and harassment that they suffered inside church or at the hands of Christian men in leadership, using the #churchtoo hashtag to shed light on countless disturbing experiences.


Second we will, if you allow us, to tell a story first.We forget the exact source of the story but that doesn’t matter. It did not originate with us, it did not take place in our church nor do we know the people involved. We are not going to tell every detail either. Not because we are protecting identities but that all the details are not necessary to make the point. The story takes place over several weeks or months.


There was a pastor who had a teenage daughter. One day a very spiritual lady in the congregation came to him and told him there was a problem with one of the elders. It was a sexual issue. The pastor decided to go directly to the elder and ask him if there was anything going on. Of course the elder denied it and since he had a sterling reputation the pastor took his word for it.


The woman came back a second time with more specific information. The sexual encounter was between the pastor’s daughter and the elder. Again the pastor went to the elder and he again denied it. Finally the daughter admitted to what was going on and the pastor was devastated of course. The rest of the details are not important except that the pastor blamed God and through away his faith.


There are some parallels between this story and the #churchtoo issue. First, to get to the truth and the heart of the issue, there must be an honest, impartial investigation. Zech. 8:16 says


These are the things which you should do: speak the truth to one another; judge with truth and judgment for peace in your gates.


Any pursuit of justice must be guided by the cannot just take someone’s word for it. This goes for both sides of the offense. The victims, or supposed victims, must tell the truth. If they tell the truth, then the evidence will support their stories. Allegations and accusations, law suits etc., are not evidence nor are they necessary the truth. 40 allegations all telling the same story does not mean a crime actually took place. The number of allegations is not evidence of a crime. It is evidence supporting the idea that people still use Hitler’s observation- if you tell a lie often enough, people will begin to think it is the truth.


If that pastor had listened to God’s word and conducted a real investigation, he may have spared his daughter months of abuse. He may have also have kept his faith. God sent a warning to him through that church member but instead of obeying God the pastor did the investigation his way.


Second, position in the church does not mean one is free from sin. As the #churchtoo and that story tell us church leaders have decided to sin, fall to temptation, been under attack from evil and have acted in a sinful manner. Before we condemn, we must understand the source behind the acts. Christians are not perfect, they are not granted infallibility upon conversion and will do things that are not in line with biblical teaching. We should not be shocked when these sins take place.We should not be traumatized when church leaders fail. We need to build up our spiritual strength and faith so that we can handle these problems correctly when they do arise.


By the word correctly, we mean that no announcement should be made that the ‘çhurch and its leadership are following biblical teaching’. If the church and its leadership is doing that, then everyone will know it.We do not make a show of our church discipline. We do not act unjustly by adding to the punishment public humiliation. We do not make ‘an example’of the church leader caught in sin nor apply zero tolerance. Neither are of God nor do they solve any problems.


Third, we do not know if this took place in the story or not, victims do not publicly announce that they were victims of a crime. Not only does such action undermine any credibility of the victim but it taints the public so that an honest investigation and trial cannot be held, as well as bring a negative witness to the church. The excuse that is often used is ‘we want to show solidarity to…’or ‘we want to encourage others to step forward…’and on the excuses flow. Getting sympathy i snot a biblical goal.We do not need to use the media to proclaim that we have been a victim.


The word will get out when the proper authorities are told about the crime and real evidence is presented to them. If we want to empower or give confidence to other victims then act biblically and set the example.Let God work so people can see God cares about them and take heart from that example. Going public and jumping on the bandwagon is not a tool for evangelism. Such actions can be used by evil to build stumbling blocks to the unbeliever. The world may do piling on, jumping on the bandwagon and so on but the church cannot afford to participate in such actions. They still need to be the light unto the world even in these circumstances.


We understand that you may be a victim but the God who knows more than we tells us how to proceed. He has given us a Bible full of instructions and one key passage is ‘do unto others…’Think how you would like to be treated and act accordingly. Being biblical comes from the heart and not done as a show.


This brings us to the fourth point, which is in neither example. We need to forgive the offenders. This action does not mean that the offender gets a free pass or that their deeds are swept under the rug. It means that we have removed the beams from our eyes and now can see clearly o how to proceed with the investigation, the trial so that we can bring a just and fair is not just nor fair to broadcast people’s sins around the world. It is not just and fair to jump on the bandwagon and say ‘me too’ or çhurchtoo’.


Everyone knows men and women sin. It does not have to be reinforced by fads or trends. Nor does it have to be made known through nefarious means. While women want payback they need to be taught that revenge is God’s not theirs- even in sexual sins. Women need to stifle the desire to ‘hurt the offender’ because that is not of God nor is it just or justice. We, men and women, are not allowed to sin in response to any type of crime including sexual ones. God does not honor sin at any time nor excuse it. Committing sin also deprives everyone of justice and a solution to the problem.


There have been enough offenses on both sides of the crime in the church. Both men and women are not innocent in these matters.Repentance for the crime, the lies, the failure to forgive or obey God is demanded before any justice can be done through #churchtoo. Ruining people is not the goal of the believer. While you may still be hurting from those offenses committed against you, you may not be aware of the fact that the offender may have truly repented and received forgiveness of from God. You may not know that they may have been punished by God already and subsequently changed their ways.


We cannot hold past sins of the people over their heads for the rest of their lives. We are not greater than God. If we truly repent then God forgets our sins after he forgives us. But we still are punished. Forgiveness never replaces or removes just punishment. Some time ago there was a fad called ‘what would Jesus do’. We know what Jesus would do for he told and showed us. He forgave, he did not falsely accuse, he did not seek revenge. he did’not try to ‘hurt someone and on it goes.If you want an example to follow look in the Bible. We have plenty. Jesus showed us the way for all sins even if he was not sexually abused. He still set the example of what to do when we are the victim of sexual sins.


The Bible covers all sins. Sexual sin is not new. We must follow Christ’s example and his instructions if we want justice and if we want forgiveness for our offenses. The Bible tells us if we want to have God forgive us, we must forgive also- do unto others…’


We are not in favor of this ‘metoo’ and #churchtoo, trend that is taking place right now. It is not that we are not sympathetic or we are defending sinners. We are all sinners. We are more concerned that the victims and their families, friends and even the offenders, do not lose their faith like that pastor did. He failed to see God warning him; he failed to take the right biblical action, he failed to see God protecting his family and so he decided to blame God for his own mistakes.


That is not right. Too often we miss where God has done what he has said and we blame him for something he has not done. A church leader, male or female, who decides to sin is not acting on instructions from God. We need to put the blame where it lies- on evil. Sin comes from evil not God. In these situations we should be taking refuge in God, not attacking him for crimes he did not commit. God can’t heal if we do not let him. He cannot bring justice if we exclude him from the process.


Look to God for your solutions not fads or bandwagons. Keep your eyes on Jesus even when church leaders let you down or sin. Jesus is the only one who can help.



Torture is Not Christian

Torture as you know is not of God. But some people may only have ahead knowledge about the act. Here are some pictures to give you a deeper understanding of what torture is and the pain it inflicts on people. Thee following examples come from Korea when they were under Japanese occupation. These are only some of the torture tactics the Japanese used.

If You Think Slavery is Dead…

…think again. We are in the midst of reading Eric Schlosser’s book, Fast Food Nation, and in chapters 7 & 8 he describes the working conditions of those employed in the meatpacking industry. This industry provides almost all the beef to your favorite fast food restaurant. The book is an interesting read. A little long on details but very informative and sad. The only difference we saw between slavery to the 1600s to the 1900s and the meatpacking employment practices was that the latter’s employees were/are free to leave. The original slaves, of course, were not. In fact, these corporations encouraged high turnover as it saved them money.

The working conditions described were very discouraging and shows that not much has been gained or changed since the Civil War. Employers are still on the lookout for people they can take advantage of and abuse. If you think businesses actually care about you or their employees, think again. Businesses are in business to make money. They probably love money as much as bankers do.They do not care who they use and abuse, even governments as these corporations bully the governments to put them on the corporate welfare rolls. If you think slavery is dead, think again. it has merely risen in another form.

Why are we bringing this up? When we were in Korea we knew a Baptist believer who made an interesting statement on a Native English Teacher discussion forum one year. He said “the Bible does not apply to businesses.”  He was and may still be very misguided. We tried to set him straight but we are not sure if he accepted the correction.

He was very wrong in that conclusion. If the Bible does not apply to businesses then where are God’s instructions for business owners to follow? How can they be pleasing to God if they do not have his instructions to obey? These are but two questions that defeat my old friend’s position. If businesses do not have the Bible governing their behavior, thinking and words then they are free to do whatever they want and no one can say one word about it.This is not only unfair but unjust. This exemption would have deep ramifications concerning the christian life, the Bible and God. Those ramifications are for another day. Our concern here is to correct the misguided thinking people have about the Bible and its application.

We are going to go as far as to say that the Bible and God’s instruction not only apply to corporate life but also education, science, and every other aspect of life, including politics and governing. Those people who claim that the Bible does not oversee all these non-religious institutions and industries are encouraging other humans to sin and disobey God. That is not  very good situation to be in. To allow others to sin, for whatever reason, is not intelligent and ignoring biblical teaching. The church’s purpose is not to give free passes to those who engage in non-religious activities but to direct them to the right way to live. Jesus set that example with Zacheus and that example is not limited to tax collection. it applies to all aspects of life.

The Bible is God’s word and it was, contrary to what theological scholars claim, written for all men and all human activities. How can governments govern when they remove the light and the truth from their authority? How can business leaders do what is right and do unto others correctly when they are told they do not have to follow God and his word? How can children be taught correctly when educators are told the Bible does not provide them the right educational standards to follow?

God did not write his instructions for them to be ignored. He did not write the Bible for his creation to be used and abused. He wrote his words so that all people-businessmen, politicians educators, believers and so on knew what was expected of them and what is the right path to follow. Sadly, there are some churches, denominations and cults who still use his word to more than abuse people.

No one, no business entity, no government, anyone, is exempt from obeying God’s words. The Bible tells us that governments will be called to account for their governing. If the church does not remind politicians of this and call for them to return to following the Bible correctly, how can politicians and government change? If business leaders are not told by the church that their actions are wrong, sinful and disobedient to God then how can they know the difference between right and wrong? How can they stop mistreating people if they are allowed to get away with the abuse and underpayment of their employees?

The Bible is the standard for all people in all areas of life. Without the biblical guide everyone is left up their own devices and we saw how that turned out. God destroyed the world with the flood.The Bible applies to business life, corporate life, educational life, government life and so much more. God rules everything not just the individual’s life.His word tells everyone how they are conduct themselves even in non-religious areas of employment and leadership..

The Bible applies to all…no exceptions. Following it removes all of slavery, even the kind that allows its employees to leave their oppressive, demeaning, poverty level paying employment.

Human Rights is Not the Goal 2

Our last article on this topic was linked to by the Baraza Foundation. You can read their work at the following link:

We appreciate these pingbacks and any other form of linking to our work no matter the reason they are linked. Because of this pingback we reviewed our article to make sure we said our point very clearly and did not leave anything out.From our perspective we think we are okay.

One of the problems that arise when human rights activists start trying to obtain equal treatment for everyone is that they choose ‘rights’ over right and wrong. In today’s world being free and having ‘rights’ is more important than behaving correctly. We understand that people do not like rules unfortunately for them any society absent of rules is not a society. It is only anarchy

People may be born free but that does not mean they are free to pursue any activity or preference they desire.If we were allowed to do that then there would be no need for law enforcement, judges, prisons. You cannot apply human rights selectively for then those excluded from those rights would be discriminated against and the people drawing that line would be exactly like those governments, churches and other organizations which make rules to govern their populations. They are making rules and declaring something to be right and something to be wrong.

The only difference between them and government/churches is that their idea of right and wrong does not match up. Nothing has changed except the former made the right category larger and the wrong category smaller.

BUT the actions of the former do NOT change sinful behavior into non-sinful activities. While they may be more tolerant of sinful activity, their declaration that wrong behavior is okay, normal and not sin does not change the real status of those behaviors.Those for human rights do not have the authority to declare what is sin and what is not. Only God has that authority. God has never rewarded sinful behavior,he only rewards obedience..

Creating a list of human rights does not mean one is obeying God or making society better. it does mean that the people working for human rights are trying to implement their ideas over other people’s ideas of what human rights should entail.That action is not fair either nor is it just.

For believers, they already have a human rights code to follow. It is found in the Bible and one of the key passages in scripture tells the believer to ‘do unto others as they would like to be treated’. BUT that passage is not an excuse to defy God and call evil good. Another passage is ‘love one another as I have loved you’ But AGAIN, clarification is needed. Jesus never loved sin and he never changed God’s declaration of what is or isn’t sin. He called people to be born again. LOVE does not leave people in their sins but calls them to embrace repentance and salvation. Jesus told Nicodemus that all people must be born gain (John 3).

To be born again a person must give up their sin. That identification is restricted to what GOD declared as sin not what humans declare is sin or not sin. Jesus never called anyone to follow a human standard.There is no argument that Christians need to treat other humans better. BUT keep in mind that the way God wants his followers to treat their fellow human may not line up with the unbelievers’ perspectives.

This is not an excuse to continue to treat other humans badly but puts the onus on the believer to do their Bible study and application correctly. They must arrive at the truth by following the Holy Spirit to it, make sure they are factually following the HS, and then apply that truth to all ares of life correctly. This includes law enforcement, the legal and political realms and even how they treat their own children. People are called to follow Jesus not humans. Human thinking needs to be transformed to accomplish that goal.Unbelievers do not possess that transformation thus they cannot tell believers what the latter should be doing. The latter takes their marching orders from God.

Those orders may bring a different response than the one unbelievers are expecting. God does not define the word ‘love’ in the same manner as secular humans. Love may bring liberty BUT it still does not allow or accept sin.It keeps God’s standard of right and wrong intact reminding the world that there is right way and a wrong way to live.


On another note, a point that the LGBTQ community uses to support their preferences must be addressed. It is often pointed out that homosexual activity is observed in the animal kingdom. These observations are used to declare that non-heterosexual activity is natural and normal. That is looking at those animal acts with rose-colored glasses.

The LBGTQ people are not looking at those actions with an honest or objective mind. They fail to see that the sin and corruption that entered the world at Adam’s sin is not restricted to humans only. That sin and corruption also affected the animal world, leading them to do abnormal acts, like homosexual behavior, instead of doing the normal heterosexual practice. Just because some animals participate in homosexual activities does not mean that it is okay for humans to do it. Animal practices are not justification for humans to lead sinful lives.

IF homosexual behavior was okay in animals, if it was normal and natural then God would not have been forced to destroy all the animals in the flood. Keep in mind God’s instructions to Noah. He commanded Noah to bring into the ark both male and female and since for the  most part ONLY TWO animals of each kind were to be brought on there was no acceptance by God of any homosexual activity- even in animals. The normal and natural union between both man and animals is heterosexual. Every other alternative is sin, unnatural and not of God.

Animals paid and pay the price for their abnormal behavior. They do not set the example for humans to follow. Jesus did that already.

Sexual Allegations

This trend continues to snowball out of control and proportion. We have not talked about it much because people, especially women, are not wanting to listen to anything that contradicts their point of view or their desired action. In the case of the above story, where does the Bible say you ruin a good man over past deeds? What if the allegations are not true? Then a good man still has endured something he should not have had to go through.

I remember back in the first Simpson trial where a woman was quoted as saying,”I know he is guilty. I just know it.” Well knowing it is NOT enough. That lady had no evidence of any wrong doing but magically came to that conclusion. That is not biblical teaching either nor applying the Bible correctly. Evidence, real evidence, gathered honestly, objectively, faithfully and following all the rules is needed. Intuition is not a biblically based method of declaring the guilt of another person.

Does this mean that people like Roy Moore get a free pass? Not really, even though it seems that Al Franken is being given one. His supposed crimes need to be honestly dealt with on both sides and it seems that Gloria Allred is being very dishonest in her role as counsel for a supposed ‘victim’. Lying about others, misrepresenting what happened is not legal procedures nor is it of God.

We haven’t even begun to touch on the allegations against the many male celebrities that have hit the news recently. If their actions are sinful then they will need to honestly repent and ask for forgiveness. Of course forgiveness does not mean they do not get punished. It just means one has removed the beams from their own eyes so they can deal with the matter properly.

We have never liked the idea that political reps., celebrities, and other public figures have been removed from their jobs over unproven allegations. Those who remove them without first securing a legal verdict of guilt are committing as much sin as those whom they accuse and had removed. Rules need to be followed,no matter what. There is no justice if the rules are violated by either side.

The other tragedy in this issue is that the church seems to follow the world’s example and act as unjustly and unfairly as the secular world does. This is wrong. The church needs to stand up and say to the world that the unbeliever is acting wrong and needs to correct itself. God is just,he is fair, he does not play favorites. The church cannot do differently than God. God loves the truth, justice, mercy thus the church must do so as well. They must break free of their fer of reprisals by the world and be consistent with God’s word and God.

They cannot let terms like molester, abuse, sexual harassment, and other emotionally biased terms to influence their thinking and judgment. Justice demands honest evaluation, not emotionally charged influenced opinion.

The church is the light to the world. That means they have to all aspects of life according to what God says to do. Following the secular world is not a God-given instruction. The church has to set the example correctly, honestly and properly. The world won’t and good men need the Church to stand up for them and keep allegations and other accusations in perspective. Allegations need real evidence before action can be taken. A woman’s word is not enough. Women lie, they do not remember clearly and may have a personal agenda for making those allegations. Real evidence,not  unproduced yearbooks,is required.

The Church has to set the world right. Innocent people need protection and only the church, truly following God can do that.

(one last word. Women also change they’re responses to past deeds. They were probably fully willing to participate at the time, but now that they see they can get a big payday their willing participation is changed to a negative.Women do not get a free pass for God, they should not be given one here. Their allegations, their testimony needs rigorous examination and real evidence must be presented to support their claims).

Some Short Comments

Different topics that require a few words


You really need to click on the link to see the image. West’s ‘çute’ diagram actually demonstrates how little people forgive past behavior and indiscretions. Unlike God, people seem to hold on to those sins committed by other people and use those to stop people from progressing in their lives. God forgives and forgets when true repentance takes place. people need to do so as well.

Also,following Jesus does not require following West’s or other people’s idea of what is Christianity. We follow what God instructs correctly.


There is a difference between legal and illegal immigration. For some reason many American political people and other Americans do not recognize this difference. They seem to have a problem understanding the difference between the right way to do things and the wrong way. God doe snot bless the wrong way.

This right way and wrong of doing things is not limited to just the issue of immigration. It also applies to the issue of marriage. Same sex unions, including transgender relationships, are not the correct way to embrace or conduct marriage.

There is always a right way and a wrong way to do things. If in doubt check your Bible for further instructions, but read it honestly.


No it isn’t fair,nor should it be done. BUT then the word pedophile needs to be used in its proper context and not abused  to make a biased and unchristian point.

The sins of pedophiles need to be forgiven by victims also. They are not excluded from biblical teaching.


It is not fair to place your own emotional perspective on the actions of others. using subjective definitions are not the right way to do things. Voting for someone who has a sinful past does not negate your salvation. We all have a sinful past, even West.


We kind of agree with West on this one. Education is important but what i sore important is if a western is educated in the truth or not. The Bible is full of references talking about the truth. Interpretation, dishonesty, lies are not the goal of the believer. Education has to bring information and teach the student how to find the truth.

It is only the truth that sets one free. Not interpretation or any other alternative.


We agree here as well. Immature Christianity is a bane to believers not a stepping stone to mature Christian belief. If you want to grow as a believer you need to desire the meat of the word. Not play childish games.

#7. A Word on Archaeology

We were watching an old episode of the Naked Archaeologist the other day and the subject matter turned to the mysterious circles found in Israel. They were excavated back in the 80s. The archaeologist who did the excavation dated the sight to the Bronze Age only because the artifacts he found could have come from the Bronze Age.

This situation is a lot like the Aztecs and their ancient buildings. There is a difference between the Aztec structures and the older more ancient structures they used as foundations for their work. All the buildings are credited to the Aztecs.

These mis-identifications develop because there is no way to prove that the Bronze Age artifacts were left behind by the original builders of the circles. A Bronze Age people could have come to the site and  took over. The buildings pre-dated the later occupants. This is one reason we cannot accept the dates proposed by archaeologists. There are just too many mitigating factors that come into play which make dating impossible.

Distortion of the past ruins both history and the supposed information we are getting from ancient sites.