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Yet No One Goes To Jail

08 May

Years ago we published an article or two on faith healing

https://theologyarchaeology.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/faith-healing-modern-medicine/

and

https://theologyarchaeology.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/faith-healing-redux/

but the figures we used in depicting the number of modern medical deaths due to mistakes were not as high as the ones we are about to place on this post. What has bothered us about this is that the unbeliever will squeal loud and long, when 1 child in 5 years approx. dies from faith healing and demand that the parents go to jail and lose custody of their other kids, yet they will not say one word when thousands of children and many more thousands of adults are killed by modern medical practices or mistakes. Here are the figures:

The study by researchers Martin A. Makary and Michael Daniel, estimates that about 400,000 people die annually in the U.S. due to medical error. The problem has gone largely unnoticed, however, the study says, because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) relies on the use of an International Classification of Disease (ICD) code to record the cause of death on death certificates.

and

“A 2004 report of inpatient deaths associated with the Agency for Healthcare Quality and Research Patient Safety Indicators in the Medicare population estimated that 575 000 deaths were caused by medical error between 2000 and 2002, which is about 195 000 deaths a year,” they wrote.

“Similarly, the US Department of Health and Human Services Office of the Inspector General examining the health records of hospital inpatients in 2008, reported 180,000 deaths due to medical error a year among Medicare beneficiaries alone. Using similar methods, Classen et al described a rate of 1.13%. If this rate is applied to all registered US hospital admissions in 2013 it translates to over 400 000 deaths a year,” said the researchers.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/medical-error-now-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-us-163409/

The silence is deafening and the hypocrisy overwhelming. Some of those people may see jail time but they do not normally lose custody of their kids, just their license to practice medicine. The lack of concern on the part of the unbelieving world is amazing given how vocal they are when it comes to a minute amount of deaths at the hands of some form of faith healing.

We quoted an article in those earlier posts where the researchers were saying how many of the 172 deaths over a 20 year period could have been prevented by modern medicine. Given the statistics we have quoted above and in those articles, we beg to differ and say that it is iffy that any of those children could have been saved if given different medical treatment.

They are concerned with 172 deaths over a 20 year period yet say very little about the thousands who die every year. The unbelievers have their priorities messed up and show that their concern is not for the safety of the children involved but their own anti-religious agenda. Faith healing seems to be safer than modern medicine. But we should not give up on modern medicine for we are not always sure when God wants us to be witnesses to the hundreds of doctors, nurses, technicians and other patients in medical facilities.

When it comes to medical care it is best to follow God’s lead for our loved ones.

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12 responses to “Yet No One Goes To Jail

  1. darthtimon

    May 8, 2016 at 7:50 pm

    TA, it is my hope to enter into a more fruitful dialogue with you this time around, as opposed to before (I hope you will not be making any sweeping edits of my posts this time, as you did with my last comment, where you completely omitted all but one line).

    As someone who is a parent, I must first of all say that if given the choice between relying on prayer or turning to medical treatment to help my daughter, I will always turn to the latter. Why? Because whilst there are failures of modern medical treatment, the success rate is significant better, both in percentage terms and in actual terms, than faith healing.

    Out of 172 children to have died when their parents/guardians shunned medical treatment in favour of faith healing, 140 would have had a 90% chance of survival. http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/PDF%20Files/Pediatricsarticle.pdf

    Moreover, this ignores the real issue. The percentage of children (or indeed, anyone) saved by faith healing is what? 50%? 60% Do you have statistical evidence from double-blind studies that can verify its effectiveness to ANY degree?

    On the other hand, modern medicine is known to work. Take the measles vaccine – since it was introduced in the US in the early 1960s, cases have dropped from around the 500,000 mark to well below 100,000 (in fact, the graph in the link would suggest that measles cases in the US are staggeringly low: http://www.vaccines.gov/basics/effectiveness/). In fact, according to the CDC, cases come in at triple digits, a decrease of 99.86% from the figures from the early 1960s. http://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

    Has there been any study carried out to suggest what the infection rate is among people who don’t immunise, and instead prefer to rely on prayer and faith?

     
    • theologyarchaeology

      May 10, 2016 at 4:59 am

      Your comment demonstrates that you have a faulty idea of what faith healing entails. It is obvious that you did not read the three posts or if you did you did not grasp what was said. Your points were covered in all three posts and since God does not work the scientific way, your demand for blind studies is moot.

      Then since faith healers do not keep records, no one knows the total amount of people who were healed by legitimate faith healers. Keep in mind, I am not pointing people to preachers like Benny Hinn and others like him. There are frauds in the faith healing arena just like there are quacks permeating the modern medical realm.

      As for editing, I am free to edit as I deem fit and will do so regardless of what anyone thinks.

       
      • darthtimon

        May 10, 2016 at 7:37 am

        {edited to keep post on topic}

        Faith healing is the act of prayer and worship to God to heal someone’s illness or injury, is it not? But even that misses the point I was making, and you seem to have missed it too. Your original post was something of an attack on medical science, and I have noticed you make several attacks on science during the course of your blog. I won’t go into detail on all of them now, and will instead focus on the faith healing vs modern medicine discussion.

        Does modern medicine and medical treatment get things wrong? Of course. No system is perfect and where there is the capacity for human error there will be human error. This doesn’t equate to wilful neglect.

        Even then, doctors can and do face jail if they make mistakes that cost lives. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-197231/Doctor-jailed-killing-patient.html

        The main issue though, is that there is a distinction between trying to save a life through a proven means and failing, and wilfully ignoring said means, in favour of an unverified and unmeasured idea, that then costs someone their life. The lack of study into the effectiveness of faith healing (which is incredibly difficult to quantify) means the only facts we have to go on are cases such as the example I gave. In percentage terms, that ratio was shocking, and I am willing to surmise that the percentages are much better for proper medical treatment than they are faith healing.

         
        • theologyarchaeology

          May 10, 2016 at 8:03 am

          If you had read my posts you would see that I encourage people to use doctors and hospitals, it is not a sin to do so.

          Faith healing is the use of divine power given to humans by the Holy Spirit for the purpose of miraculous healing. I have not heard of a failed true and legitimate faith healing case. The latitude you give medical science needs to be applied to faith healing as well as medical care is up to the individual not you or people who oppose faith healing.

          You miss my points if you say ‘I attacked…’ as you should know that neither science nor medical science are the authority in health. God trumps them both. Uhm..legitimate faith healing is a proven method conducted for over 2000 years.

          Faith healing depends upon many factors and since it is done for the glory of God we do not need to keep track or create statistics. we do not answer to humans, science or modern medical practitioners.

          Given that all people who use medical science for their ills still die, I wouldn’t promote it over faith healing if I were you. Science and medical science still cannot stop death from happening so it is not as grand as you make it.

           
          • darthtimon

            May 10, 2016 at 6:48 pm

            TA, it is obvious that we have a number of disagreements, so I shall work through in order and start with your first post on this subject.

            The attacks are quite unrealistic and hypocritical. Their foundation are based in hatred towards anything religious and the attackers have firmly closed their mind to any reason or being reasonable.  They feel everyone should do medical treatment their way, especially if a child is involved.

            I have to disagree. The anger is directed toward a practice not proven to work and one that therefore puts lives at risk. Furthermore, when parents make the decision on behalf of a child to turn to faith healing, they are taking advantage of the child’s lack of knowledge on the subject. You speak of being close-minded to reason – I call it wilful neglect.

            Now let’s look in more detail at your ‘evidence’.

            Faith healing: Asser studied 172 reported deaths of infants and children between 1975 and 1995. Deaths were found in 34 states among members of 23 religious groups. They belonged to families of Christian Scientist, Faith Tabernacle, Faith Assembly and several other religious groups that practice faith healing (http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical3.htm)

            Modern Medicine: An average of 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002, according to a new study of 37 million patient records that was released today by HealthGrades, the healthcare quality company. (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/11856.php)

            Let’s break this down into percentage terms. 600,000 deaths are clearly unfortunate – they are also 1.6% of 37 million patients. What percentage of patients who underwent faith healing survived? You said it yourself – records are not kept. It is a notoriously difficult area to keep accurate records of, and this draws into question its validity as a genuine, verifiable alternative to medicine and medical treatment. Out of the 37 million patients seen to over the time period you list, 98.4% were not harmed due to errors or neglect. What of the example I gave in my first post? 140 of the children who died when their parents relied on faith healing rather than medical treatment had a 90% chance of survival. That’s 80% of cases where the odds were huge that they would live had they sought proper medical help.

            Conversely, 80% of those who died were victims of neglectful practice – on the part of the ‘healer’ who could not help them as well as on the part of the parents.

            So, 98.4% of patients who are not harmed due to malpractice or neglect (a much greater volume of patients too), vs 80% who sadly died.

            Let’s continue:

            Do you see a problem? The faith healing statistics covered a 20 year span and only had 172 deaths (that was reported to this study) while modern medicine had 600,000 deaths approx. in 3 years.

            As already explained, one system has a success rate of 98.4%. The other, only 20%, based on the available data.

            You then go on to list the expected survival rates for the children who died, after which you say:

            The problem with that analysis is that it is based upon the assumption that the people involved would respond to modern medicine. Hard to say since they are working on skeletons to come to this judgment. What about modern medicine, how many could be saved if things were done differently (I say that because we do not know if faith healing would be successful or not in treating those 600,000 people).

            Medical science has advanced to the point where autopsies can tell us how someone died, and once the cause of death is known, it’s easy to determine what possible treatments and procedures might have helped.

            Up next, you refer to how changes in medical procedures might save more lives:

            So if changes were made to some practices of modern medicine, 120,000 people could possibly still be alive today. yet no one is demanding that the modern doctors and nurses be sent to prison for murder like they do for those involved in faith healing.

            Medical science is an evolving, learning process. It is not one of deliberate and wilful neglect. There will always be those who abuse their position (a point you acknowledge happens with faith healers), but there is difference between a doctor who made an honest but tragic mistake and someone who deliberately denied a patient access to a life-saving drug or treatment (least of all a child, who cannot make an informed choice). This is why there is a distinction in the law.

            As your first post is quite long (and I don’t have time right now) I ask for your patience as I arrange to reply to the rest.

             
  2. theologyarchaeology

    May 11, 2016 at 7:24 am

    Everything you have mentioned is basically answered in my posts. The deception in you blinds you to the points being made. One point you raised– 98.4% were not harmed– how do you know that they were not harmed? The reports I used focused only on deaths, not other injuries suffered by patients to the hands of medical professionals

    Medical science cannot say who could or could not respond t modern medicine. You ignore mitigating factors, like that researcher, who would to know if those skeletons were allergic to antibiotics or not.

    The assumptions you people make in order to ‘prove’ your points omit these vital details which undermine your argument and demonstrate your dishonesty in evaluating the issue at hand.

    Faith healing is’t denying life saving medicine to anyone there is no guarantee that modern medicine would heal those people. Medical science is not God yet you treat it like it was. It has no control over who lives or dies.

    I love it when you say the doctor made an ‘honest but tragic mistake’ when a patient dies yet do not pass that courtesy on to parents who use faith healing. Your words continue to prove me correct

     
    • darthtimon

      May 11, 2016 at 4:16 pm

      TA, I am in the process of going over your previous posts; I shall respond to your replies once I have finished doing so.

      Once again, to quote you:

      Those quotes only give an idea of what we are dealing with and the amount of unrealistic thinking that comes from the unbelieving side. They are more worried about 172 deaths over 20 years than they are 600,000 over 3:

      This is a distortion of the facts, and given how often you repeat it, I can only presume it to be deliberate on your part. I have already given you the percentages here – 98.4 of patients were not killed through neglect or malpractice. Might some of them died from being too ill or badly hurt to be saved? It’s very possible. Is that the issue? No. The issue is (as you well know) that despite you referring to large numbers of deaths versus a handful, the percentage of deaths through malpractice or neglect is very different.

      You continue with:

      But given the large amount of deaths at the hands of modern medicine, they really cannot make that claim. They do not know how many of those 172 people would have died under modern treatment. They do not care about that or it would have been addressed.

      The one-sided argument presented by unbelievers, in the medical field as well, tends to tilt the playing field against those who want to use faith healing for whatever reason they have. The arguments presented against faith healing are not grounded in fact or reality but prejudice, bias and a hatred for anything religious interfering in their profession.

      You admitted earlier on that statistics on the effectiveness of faith healing are very hard to come by. On the other hand, statistics demonstrating the effectiveness of modern medical treatment are widely available. Whilst it cannot be known with absolute certainty how many of the 172 children who died when faith healing failed might have saved via medical treatment, it can be known to a reasonable degree. As already mentioned, medical practice has advanced to the degree that we can determine cause of death from studying the deceased. It is even possible to learn the cause of death with bodies that are extremely old (check out http://aboutforensics.co.uk/forensic-anthropology/ for more details on this), and the more recent the death, the easier it will be to determine the cause. All of this presumes an autopsy wasn’t performed at the time (they usually are).

      Once a cause is known, it’s possible to determine what courses of action would have been available to help the deceased.

      You speak of prejudice among the medical community and ‘unbelievers’, but what you do not understand is that medical science is built on observations and evidence. There is a wealth of information to show the effectiveness of various medical treatments and procedures, whereas what facts support faith healing as a viable, effective alternative? You have already acknowledged the lack of study into this field, yet you criticise the stance of medical professionals as ‘not grounded in fact or reality’. The opposite is true – medical professionals will look at what works, and what can be verified as working.

      The remainder of that particular post is not really relevant to the ‘pros and cons’ of medical treatment vs faith healing. With my next comment, I will discuss your next post, and then tackle your responses.

       
      • theologyarchaeology

        May 11, 2016 at 11:42 pm

        #1. You said ‘never harmed’ I called you on your error and now you change your words, you lost credibility with that one.

        #2. Percentages mean nothing

        #3. Studying bones does not discover mitigating factors, which I have already mentioned, Your point also assumes that the parents of those 172 people could actually afford treatment. I already know what ideas anthropologists say about dead bodies but that doesn’t make their analysis correct.

        #4.I am tired of people who say I do not understand something then proceed to tell me what I already know and have analyzed. The weaknesses of both undermine your argument as you assume those two concepts are perfect and produce the exact reason something took place in history.

        #5. You keep making the argument that I am against medical treatment. I have never said any such thing nor have I told anyone to forgo medical treatment. You also miss the point of what I have written completely and have set up your own strawman argument and argued against me on that basis. I have already told you that you missed the point yet you continue to construct arguments that have nothing to do with what I am saying. You waste my time.

        #6. Your high esteem of th emedical professional blinds you to the reality.

         
        • darthtimon

          May 12, 2016 at 11:29 am

          TA, you should be aware that this entire discussion is going to end up on my site at some stage. I would urge you to consider your replies carefully, since the belligerence has been taken up a notch with your latest reply.

          #1. You said ‘never harmed’ I called you on your error and now you change your words, you lost credibility with that one.

          Irrelevant nitpick. You know full well the point I was making – namely that loss of life due to errors and mistakes occurred in 1.6% of cases. As I mentioned in my previous comment, 98.4% of patients were not killed due to neglect or malpractice. 98.4% of patients (out of 37 million) received the appropriate treatment. Would all of the patients with life-threatening illness or injuries have survived? No, but that isn’t the point here and you know that.

          #2. Percentages mean nothing.

          This is the point where you lose all credibility. The evidence is overwhelming – neglect, malpractice and errors do not cause many deaths when weighed up against all the successes.

          #3. Studying bones does not discover mitigating factors, which I have already mentioned, Your point also assumes that the parents of those 172 people could actually afford treatment. I already know what ideas anthropologists say about dead bodies but that doesn’t make their analysis correct.

          You are ignoring what I am saying. I do not claim that the cause of death might be something that could definitely have been prevented (but then, you have no evidence it could have been prevented with faith healing either), but it can be identified. If it is known to be something that treatments are available for, then there is certainly more of a chance for their survival than if no treatment is administered.

          As for costs – obviously I cannot speak for every parent, but as a parent, I would gladly bankrupt myself if it meant saving my daughter’s life. Nothing would be more important to me than that.

          #4.I am tired of people who say I do not understand something then proceed to tell me what I already know and have analyzed. The weaknesses of both undermine your argument as you assume those two concepts are perfect and produce the exact reason something took place in history.

          I’m not even sure what part of my argument you are responding to here, but I do not claim perfection for medical science, in any way shape or form. Obviously drugs can fail to work, or surgical procedures can go wrong. What I do not do is hold up a completely unproven alternative as being somehow viable as an alternative.

          #5. You keep making the argument that I am against medical treatment. I have never said any such thing nor have I told anyone to forgo medical treatment. You also miss the point of what I have written completely and have set up your own strawman argument and argued against me on that basis. I have already told you that you missed the point yet you continue to construct arguments that have nothing to do with what I am saying. You waste my time.

          The strawman here is your own. I have at no point claimed you are against medical treatment. However, every time you distort the facts (such as speaking of ‘large numbers of deaths’ which ignores the percentages), and seek to suggest that faith healing is a reasonable option, you are undermining medical treatment. It is frankly idiotic to suggest to an adult that the power of prayer and faith can cure diseases over seeing a doctor and getting examined, diagnosed and treated, and it is criminally negligent to to encourage parents to consider faith healing as a viable alternative.

          #6. Your high esteem of th emedical professional blinds you to the reality.

          What reality? That medical treatment is proven to work, and faith healing isn’t? I have no qualms whatsoever if someone wants to turn to God whilst undergoing treatment, to shore themselves up and find strength. I have no qualms if an adult wishes to turn to faith healing – they are capable of making their own choices. However, the crux of this entire discussion can be distilled to one point – the point you made when you complained that those who turn to faith healing can face criminal charges if their child dies as a result. It is a point I have already made several times over, and one that you fail to grasp in favour of what I can only presume is a deliberate distortion of my position. A child has no say in the process – if the parent or guardian decides to see a faith healer instead of a doctor, the child is not able to question this (especially a young child).

          You have already been given details on how effective modern medicine is (I refer you back to my first post, regarding vaccinations), and I have already established that cases of death through malpractice are in fact extremely rare. Medical treatment is not perfect (as I have already mentioned), but it is demonstrably effective in the vast majority of cases, whereas you yourself have admitted statistics on faith healing are very hard to come by. If a parent chooses to deny their child access to a proven option, in favour of one that is not proven to work, that is wilful negligence. If the child dies as a result, it is absolutely right they should be prosecuted.

          Now let’s look at some of your other statements:

          If you had read my posts you would see that I encourage people to use doctors and hospitals, it is not a sin to do so.

          Another strawman. I never claimed you would try to discourage people from using doctors.

          Given that all people who use medical science for their ills still die, I wouldn’t promote it over faith healing if I were you. Science and medical science still cannot stop death from happening so it is not as grand as you make it.

          Never claimed science can stop death. Faith healing doesn’t either – we all die in the end. This is another strawman.

          I love it when you say the doctor made an ‘honest but tragic mistake’ when a patient dies yet do not pass that courtesy on to parents who use faith healing. Your words continue to prove me correct

          Another distortion of the facts. Adults are aware of the options and if they choose to deliberately deny access to proven medical procedures, in favour of something without verification, they are being neglectful. This is clearly not the same as a doctor making an error.

          Since you are continually ignoring what I am actually writing, whilst accusing me of the same, I am going to cut this discussion off at my next post, unless you can demonstrate you understand what I am saying. As before, you should be aware this discussion will end up on my site (I am archiving everything, including screen captures of what has been said thus far, so it will become immediately apparent if you start editing posts).

           
          • theologyarchaeology

            May 12, 2016 at 11:58 pm

            Your posts are just getting to long to address properly so I will be selective:

            #1. I would urge you to consider your replies carefully, since the belligerence has been taken up a notch with your latest reply.

            –Reading into my words your own thoughts just distorts what has been said.

            #2. This is the point where you lose all credibility. The evidence is overwhelming – neglect, malpractice and errors do not cause many deaths when weighed up against all the successes.

            –No, percentages distort the reality and paint a worse picture. 400,000 to 600,000 annual deaths i far worse than 172 deaths over 20 years.

            #3. What I do not do is hold up a completely unproven alternative as being somehow viable as an alternative.

            –Uhm…faith healing has been around for thousands of years, far longer than modern medicine and has shown that it does work. Your omitting of this fact shows you are not being honest.

            #4. Adults are aware of the options and if they choose to deliberately deny access to proven medical procedures, in favour of something without verification, they are being neglectful. This is clearly not the same as a doctor making an error

            — Adults also know the options when it comes to faith healing. They know the risks and the history and the danger if someone i not a true faith healer from God. Your distortion ruins anything you say.

            #5. I am going to cut this discussion off at my next post, unless you can demonstrate you understand what I am saying.

            –This i not a threat but something I look forward to seeing done. It is not I who misunderstand, your prejudice and bias cloud your thinking and you cannot see the truth about faith healing. Your support for modern medicine ignores the human factor or have you forgotten all those medical professionals who let people die in their waiting rooms because the people were not of the right status.

            There i nothing wrong with using true faith healer and they are usually the better option when faced with medical troubles.

             
  3. darthtimon

    May 13, 2016 at 12:05 pm

    What exactly have I distorted? I made it very clear I said adults can make up their own minds – but that when they deny others (such as children) access to medical care, they are stepping outside of their duty of care toward their children. The evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of the effectiveness of modern medicine, despite your refusal to drop your prejudice and acknowledge that.

     
    • theologyarchaeology

      May 13, 2016 at 12:23 pm

      This is the only item in your comment I want to address. The only person who is overstepping their boundaries and duties is you. You do not get to say what decisions parents can or cannot make. It is none of your business and your subjective opinion mean nothing.

      You can decide for your children only not for any one else’. You example the problem in the western world as you are someone who sticks his nose in where it does not belong and interfere with parental authority. You are not God, you do not get to choose for others what they will do or not do.

      This is the last comment I will post from you. You are done. People like you ruin families not help them. You are part of the problem not any where close to a solution.

       
 
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