I really do not know where to begin today as the topics in question are long and contain many details needing addressing. When I read these articles, I wonder if there are any body left in the church that actually listens to God. The first point brings me to that state as male church leaders were listening to false teachers on how to import false teaching into the church. That may sound strong but let’s face it, equality for women in professional church positions is false teaching and those advocating it are false teachers.
Yesterday I had the privilege of sharing on a panel alongside 4 other female pastors & leaders in a room filled with about 25 male pastors & leaders in Denver. Most everyone had evangelical roots, and while some pastored churches others were leading nonprofits and various ministries in town.
There was only one purpose: to listen to what it was like to be a woman in ministry.
Equality is the code word for disobeying God’s word and trying to change the duties of women to fit that of a man; much like how the words ‘civil rights’ is the code word for same-sex marriage and supporting sin. Both issues ignore the fact that homosexuals have civil rights to marry they just reject the partner they are allowed. As for the advocates of women in ministry, they ignore the fact that women are already equal in God’s church and kingdom, women can exercise their spiritual gifts, use their talents, and even teach other women and children BUT that is not good enough for them, they want man’s god-given leadership duties as well and they are not allowed that.
Here is a look at several of that author’s points:
1. We will need to educate, advocate, agitate (I love these three words together!)
We do but NOT in the sense that that author means or intends. Women need to be educated on how to perform their duties and not usurp the roles given to men. We need to advocate that women have something to offer the church in general but it i snot expressed through church leadership or pastoral positions and we need to forget about agitating except for those false teachers who want to disobey God and import their own ways into the church. We agitate them by showing then the door and keeping the church pure or giving them an opportunity to repent of their sins and get right with God.
We do not change the church because some women are not content with their roles in it.
2. Listen, listen, and listen some more.
No these false teachers and misguided women need to listen to God not evil. Right now they are listening to evil and giving it free entry into the church.
3. Speak up. When you see an injustice against women, say something.
So they are saying that God is unjust. We need to ask then what are they still doing praying to a God that disproves of their ideology and instructed his church to have male leaders only? It is not unjust to keep women in their correct spiritual roles and duties. That is called helping them obey God and be sinless and holy in his sight.
4. Re-consider the teams you are on.
Yes do that and if there are women on them, then remove the women and become obedient to God. God’s word tells us that women was made for man, and that they are our helpmeets thus those purposes do not hinder a woman from giving wise counsel to their husbands the pastor, missionary or church leader. it is evil that is behind this feminist movement of church equality and we need to stop it not give it hero’s welcome.
A group called “People Against Fundamentalism” plans to protest Brian Houston’s decision to bring Mark Driscoll to the Sydney Hillsong Conference this summer.
This section i snot about that particular post but about Mr. Throckmorton as I have read his website from time to time and he could be identified as one of those people who cannot mind his own business and sticks his nose in where it does not belong. He was a leading voice against Mark Driscoll and I found, that while I was not an ally of Driscoll’s, I really did not like Throckmorton’s activities against that man.
I did not find anything Christian in his words or continued posts and that bothers me for if you are going to attack a man who God may have appointed but none-the-less, was in God’s pulpit then you need to have the backing of God before you raise a hand against a shepherd of the God’s church. Throckmorton’s theme continues even though Driscoll has left the now defunct Mars Hill Church.
God’s instructions on how to deal with those who may be sinning did not include broadcasting them around the world for all to give their two cents. That is not the way to bring repentance from those who do wrong. We do not need people like Throckmorton bringing God’s people or his word to be openly mocked by unbelievers, that is as sinful as anything Driscoll may have or may not have done.
If you cannot be biblical in your addressing the problems in the church then do not do it at all. Throckmorton is not being biblical at all.
So in this post I am going to deal with the usual objections to women in ministry, one by one. Some of these objections come out of a high church tradition, some tend to come from low church traditions, some are Catholic/Orthodox some are Protestant, but we will take on a sampling of them all without trying to be exhaustive or exhausting.
Ben Witherington is one reason why i never wanted to be a scholar (nothing about him personally as I have never met the man) and why I do not like scholars in general. They do not follow Jesus’ instructions to follow the HS to the truth. They follow their own thinking, lean to their own understanding and simply ignore the fact that Jesus is the head of the church not the scholar.
His post is very long so I will try to pick the best points to highlight here.
1. Women can’t be ministers, because only males can be priests offering the sacrifice of the Mass etc.
Pure semantics and that is not enough to counter what biblical instructions we have from God. Just because a NT church leader is not called a ‘priest’ does it mean that God changed his rules about who leads his church.
2. Women can’t be ministers because then they would have headship over men, including their husbands
A purely cultural argument and there is no biblical instruction to take secular culture over God’s word. That method means that secular culture is the light unto God’s word instead for the reverse which is a biblical mandate. There are other things he says that really bother me:
Submission is no longer gender specific or unilateral as Paul offers third order moral discourse here, working for change
The Bible does not say that at all but is clear in several books that the wife be submissive to her husband. There is no verse in any biblical book stating that husbands be submissive to their wives. Witherington is reading his own ideas into scripture but it gets worse
we need to keep steadily in mind that what determines or should determine the leadership structures in the church is not gender but rather gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit.
That is not what the Bible says and we have 2 passages of scripture detailing who may be a pastor and the criteria for that position. Sadly for Witherington ‘gifts and graces’ are not included in the criteria.
3. Women can’t be Christian ministers because specific passages in the NT prohibit it.
I have been in a discussion on woman pastors for a bit now over at Evans’ website and like the guy there, Witherington cannot pint to one biblical verse granting women the permission to be pastors or leaders of a church. There isn’t one yet people like Witherington dance around the clear instructions on who can be a minister because they are fighting for ‘equality’ or ‘cultural’ acceptance.
His examples state that Paul’s instructions are ‘occasional’ yet if they are occasional then where are the universal instructions for the church to follow and implement? Where are the biblical verses giving women permission to be ministers? No Paul’s examples are universal not occasional.There are too many points in that article to deal with effectively here, suffice it to say that Witherington does more tap dancing around and with scripture than the late Gregory Hines did in any of his movies.
One point though to address:
the text says nothing about women submitting to men.
Why does God have to be redundant and keep repeating himself before people get the message? The passage in question may not be saying specifically the word ‘men’ there but what other submissive instruction do women have in the Bible? They are to submit to the Lord but he does not grant women permission to be ministers either nor advocates for their inclusion in the ministerial staff. Remember if Jesus wanted to over-turn his father’s instruction for the temple, he would have called women as well as men to be his first disciples.
Jesus never once over-turned God’s OT instructions for the temple thus those who are advocating for woman pastors do so purely upon eisegesis not Jesus’ actual words.
#4. Its Called Studying…– https://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/deep-end-dawkins/
I am not going to rehash the familiar cavil that Dawkins is not a theologian and thus has no right to say anything about theology.
That’s absurd. Most priests and ministers aren’t “theologians” either: they have been through three or so years of seminary and have not been fazed by serious theological study. Increasingly, they are linguistically inept, philosophically unformed and critically dumb. That doesn’t stop them from climbing into a pulpit every Sunday and sharing the air with thousands of bored listeners, eager to get their souls washed and on to a KFC extra crispy traditional special
I know nothing about the author of that post or website. I just came across the Dawkins story on West’s and because the latter linked to it, i came across this tidbit. I was liking the article until I read those quoted words. This is another reason I rejected becoming a scholar and a theologian. The superiority complex that comes with that position just turns me off.
We are to be students of God’s word not egotistical people who think they are the cat’s meow because they know Greek, Hebrew and study incoherent ancient fragments in their spare time or read long boring dissertations by professors who have no idea what the real world is all about but remain in their ivory towers all day long thinking.
As you can see I have a great disdain for the attitude of theologians and Bible scholars. They are wrong as Jesus did not put the gospel in the hands of scholars only. He called people from all walks of life to be his first church leaders, then added Paul at a later date to round it all out. This tells us that God’s word is not restricted to the realm of scholarship or academia even though that field will contribute insights that God wants us to learn.
Paul and his books are not greater than Peter’s, the fisherman, and the latter’s words are just as important to the Christian life as Paul’s are. This doe snot mean that we go out and get a fisherman to fill the pulpit every Sunday. It means that everyone can grasp God’s word and learn the truth. Their knowledge of the truth is not inferior to that of the supposed theologian’s.
There is only one truth and we are to follow the HS to find it. This means we can read scholars and get some of the truth or we can read lowly works by anonymous true believers and still get some of the truth. The truth i snot the property of nor a monopoly of the theologian or scholar. It belongs to God and he reveals it to us if we want it.
It is really wrong to insult God’s shepherds as that quote does because most of those ministers are doing something the scholar and theologian isn’t– looking to God for the truth and what to preach to their flock. The theologian looks to academia, other scholars and their own understanding and they have failed the church and their students by refusing to obey Jesus and seek the truth, then pass it on to others.
To fight evil and prepare the congregations for spiritual life and warfare we need men of God armed with the truth not men of academia and discussion.